•   days until the Eurovision Song Contest Final in Rotterdam!
4

Congratulations to Austria and a few thoughts about esc 2014

  1. Mina Member with a "past"

    The only good things about this victory, in my book, is that a/it went to a country that hadn't won in 48 years and b/that Vienna is a beautiful city (I haven't visited but I've seen it on TV:P)
    Apart from that, I believe that victories of acts like that (be it a 'woman' with a beard, a turkey, a Verka, a whatever 'role') only harm Eurovision in the long run. Because they reinforce the stereotypes that most people have about Eurovision...that it's a freak show..and we may not like the word but, being a fan for over 20 years, I know what I know and how the general public views this contest, especially after the '90s.
    Conchita winning does not mean that...Europe voted for diversity and 'the right to be different'...unless we believe that all the countries who voted for Austria are so 'liberal'...if anyone believes that, they're delusional.

    Regarding the song, I never liked it, I find it old-fashioned and one of the more boring ballads..Conchita performed it with passion and good vocals, admittedly..but, no, it's not something I would vote for, regardless of the singer...and I don't believe that it would stand any chance of winning if someone else had sang it, even if it was Sanna (lol)

    About the rest of the songs...congrats to Holland, I always liked the song but, once I saw them on stage, they really won me over. A good, solid song with an excellent staging and chemistry out of this world between the 2 singers..it was a pleasure to watch...even my dad liked it and he rarely likes slow songs.

    Also, congrats to Sweden, it was an expected result..anddddddddd to my big favourites, Norway (1st in the semi, 4th in the final by the Greek jury..yay) and Hungary, they did great! Especially Norway I consider it a huge achievement that a song that understated AND from the position no5 AND sang by an amateur did that well. I really believe that had Norway appeared after #20, it would be in the top 5.

    About Greece, just as I had said from the beginning, we should have sent Martakis. This kind of song does NOT do well in Eurovision, period. But our boys tried their best and it's not their fault we did lousy.

    Finally, the results this year prove that no, Azerbaijan won't always be in the top 10 and yes, if you have a good song/staging, you can do extremely well even if you come from a small, western country without allies/diaspora.

    See you in Vienna :up:
  2. Jonny Ginger Tory Witch

    Given that a forum is a much better place to (calmly and diplomatically, ofc. :P) debate this point, I'll explain here in more detail what I said last night.

    Winners like Lordi, entrants like Verka and the Russian Grannies, to my mind, do Eurovision a massive favour. Obviously I can only speak on behalf of the UK, but I remember post-Lordi's victory everybody was talking about Eurovision. If I remember correctly, the following year's contest, 2007, was watched at its peak, by over 12 million people in the UK, a figure not achieved since. Likewise, when Verka came second, for the following week everybody was talking about Eurovision, even if her not winning meant that the hysteria didn't quite reach Lordi-esque levels.

    On the other hand, when Helena Paparizou won, nobody remembered her the week or even a day after the contest. I remember sitting down to watch the 2006 contest and having no idea what the previous winning song was, and I doubt anybody else in the UK did. The same goes for 2007, 2008, 2009 etc. etc. The reality is that a 'normal' winner doesn't promote discussion or media coverage in the way that 'novelty' winners have and will (although I do reject the labelling of Conchita as a 'novelty', I accept that she will be considered as such for the purpose of this discussion), and Eurovision needs that promotion. Of course, I'm not saying a novelty winner should win every year, however, having a winner that people will remember come the following contest every decade or so, really does give the contest a shot in the arm it needs. Nobody in the UK knows who Charlotte Perrelli is, but they do know Dana International. Likewise, nobody knows remembers Helena Paparizou, but they all know Lordi.

    As for the notion that it damages the contest's reputation as a serious singing contest, I don't buy it as I don't think Eurovision is a serious singing contest. This year's contest was opened by a mediocre pop song accompanied by a man in the hamster wheel, shortly followed by a man singing about Cheesecake, shortly followed by the world's worst ballad, and so on. The reality is that the vast, vast majority of Eurovision music isn't capable of topping the charts across Europe, hence it ... well ... doesn't. Yes every few years a winner (most recently Loreen) does, and Eurovision-fans lose their shit thinking that Eurovision has finally established itself as a serious competition, but these songs are the exception rather than the rule. Until we have a Eurovision which consists of 37 chart-worthy, perfectly produced songs, it's unreasonable and naïve to think that Eurovision will be taken seriously as a musical event, and, in any case, that isn't going to happen as long as it's of a competitive nature, so don't hold your breath.

    Equally, who really does want Eurovision to be a serious music competition? What I love about Eurovision is that it doesn't take itself too seriously, that it is 3.5 hours of organised chaos and that the whole event, while superbly produced, is on the whole, rather amateur. That's what makes Eurovision Eurovision, and crucially, that's what makes people watch.

    I appreciate that I'm only speaking on behalf of what I know living in the UK, however I from what I can gather, in a lot if not most of Europe, the situation is largely the same.

    As for this point, I agree that Conchita wouldn't have won had she not had a beard, but I also believe that Helena Paparizou wouldn't have won without the dance routine, Lordi without the makeup, Marija Serifovic without the tomboy looks, Dima without the icerink. Heck, even Ruslana won due to her dance routine and a favourable running order in relation to Serbia & Montenegro. In pretty much every case, the winning 'act', is not just the perfect song, but the perfect combination of a good song, a great performance, signed sealed and delivered by a favourable position in the running order in relation to one's competitors.

    In essence, there's nothing wrong with saying that the song wouldn't have won if it were performed by somebody else, because you're right, it wouldn't. This logic can, however, be applied to the stage act of pretty much every winner in recent years, with the possible sole exception of Rybak (due to his wild yet inexplicable popularity). Applying it only to Conchita makes little sense to me.

    So yes, no hard feelings of course Mina, I just wildly disagree with almost everything you've just said <<.
    DenDutch, Anaconda and ThatWelshOne like this.
  3. Mina Member with a "past"

    Jonny, of course you disagree. you're British.
    In the UK, just like you said, people were only talking about Eurovision when the Lordi won and noone when Helena won, for example.

    I'm Greek...we actually do love Eurovision and we talk about it, regardless of the winner.

    So, since we come from different point of views, it's normal to disagree<<
  4. Jonny Ginger Tory Witch

    You say that but I think Greece is the exception rather than the rule. I had a look at the viewing figures across Europe a few days ago, and in a lot of Europe (primarily in Eastern Europe, in fact) the viewing figures were less than impressive. In Ukraine it's generally only watched by a few million people, whilst the Turkish viewing figures prior to their withdrawal were utterly abysmal. The biggest disaster, however, was Israel where it was only watched by 100 000 people, which topped even Italy's sub 10% market share.

    Basically I think it's only really Sweden and Greece that obsess over Eurovision all year round :P.
  5. Nessie SWEET HOME ALABAMA

    Sorry Mina but I disagree.

    Conchita was the best singer of last night. Perhaps her song wasn't the best, but the way she defended it and the staging and performance was truly amazing. That song fitted PERFECTLY with her, and that's something to be considered. Eurovision is a song contest, indeed, but songs have to be defended, they have to transmit a message effectively, and few songs did that last night (among them, Spain, that is a case that I could compare with Austria... a great voice, a great singer that is able to tell Europe what sh'es trying to say... but with a not-that-good song. Still, she got a good placing because that's important).
    Conchita wouldn't have won with 'Moustache' or 'Maybe (Forse)', NO WAY.

    I was sitting in the floor in front of the TV and I couldn't get my eyes off Conchita, watching her, listening to her. She's a genious and she's inspiring. She's not an act to laugh, she's totally serious with what she's saying, with a beard or without. In fact, she was the MOST SERIOUS ACT of last night. And that's why she won and the turkey, chiquilicuatre acts didn't. Few dumb people will dare to say she was ridiculous last night. She put Europe in a test of tolerence and acceptance and it went more than OK. Even RUSSIA and AZERBAIJAN voted for Conchita.

    When the 26 countries performed, it was quite clear that the winner would be nobody else than Conchita. I didn't know if she would get the higher amount of points, but she had already won the night. For the lovers of Sanna or any other favourite, believe me that it's better that they didn't win, because it would have been the least trascendent winner ever, Conchita would have eclipsed their victory and that'd have been quite embarrasing for them, I guess.

    About the other contestants, I'd like to remark Hungary, the UK, Denmark and Holland, they all were quite good last night. Armenia and Sweden were totally soul-less to me, and as we say in ESpain, decaffeinated. Greece was quite fun and I enjoyed it a lot. I liked the Norwegian singer's voice, but the song wasn't good at all, and he looked scared, I didn't like his posture. France didn't deserve the toilet position.

    [IMG]
    DenDutch, Scheeples, Anaconda and 2 others like this.
  6. Merjan MICHAEL GOVE FOR PM

    I don't intend to say too much here but commend Jonny and Nessie for their detailed and well-thought out responses. Last night so many people were saying Conchita only got votes because she was a man with a beard wearing a dress, but I think it was rather that she got votes DESPITE being a man with a beard in a dress.

    I disagree with previous comments inasmuch that I think the song still might have done well sung by anyone else (although the lyrics were obviously particularly pertinent in this case) if it had been performed as flawlessly and passionately as it was and with the perfect staging it had.

    Verka, Dustin the turkey and Chikilicuatre (to name just the few mentioned here) were joke/protest acts/songs, whereas Rise Like a Phoenix was a serious song which, I think, served its purpose in getting Europe to look past the superficial.
    DenDutch, Anaconda, Nessie and 3 others like this.
  7. NickEmpel BURGER AND FRIES

    There's a lot to be said here. Pro Conchita, against Conchita - you name it.
    Once again however (and no, this is not an attack to you, Mina, but to other reactions I've seen yesterday) it shows that most Eurovision fans are brainless.

    For years, they shouted 'It should be about the SONG!!!' - Now we have a winner like Austria, a country that really isn't successful in anything but baking cakes and skiing, with a credible song. And suddenly, it's all about the winning appearance...
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not delusional. With Conchita's looks, you are of course going to have the looks as main feature, but people are now ignoring the song, as shown by you, Mina, as that really was one of the smallest paragraphs of your post. This song is credible enough to win Eurovision. The fact that this song (note: SONG) won Eurovision is something Austria can be really proud of.

    Last night, reactions online showed why Conchita's statement was necessary. I was under the delusional impression that tolerance and acceptance were two standard things with most Europeans. Turns out it's far from that. I've seen people call for 'every Conchita fan to blow their brains out'. That goes too far. WAY too far. Conchita Wurst made a statement for all people with self esteem issues, whether you're straight, bi, gay or whatever else you'd like to be. As a straight person with a self esteem issues, Conchita's message and performance just hit me.

    I don't believe in 'harming the contest'. That is really too negative for me. Sorry, but nor Rybak nor Loreen made the contest 'better'. Verka, Lordi and Conchita haven't and won't make it 'worse'. A change on how people see the contest is an individual process for each country. Holland has now done it. The final in 2012 had 1,0 million viewers. 2013, 4,9 million viewers. And at the peak last night, during the voting, a massive 6,6 million people tuned in to see Eurovision. My country has made the change. UK will make the change. Austria has made the change. Don't be dramatic to say that 1 act can damage the contest. It can't.

    Now, a shout out to many other countries.
    France needs to wake the fuck up right now. Their national final was a disaster and they came last for the very first time. I've seen a lot of French fans say that France 3 should consider withdrawing. That would be a massive loss for the contest.
    United Kingdom knows what they're doing. Keep Guy Freeman there, but lose the stage director. And try to come up with a proper chart song instead of the cliche message this song had. I honestly think staging and cliches killed the UK last night. Next year, the way of picking the entry should not change.

    All in all, we've seen a really good contest that will keep us fans talking for quite a while!
    Scheeples, Anaconda, Nessie and 3 others like this.
  8. Jonny Ginger Tory Witch


    It's long overdue though let's be honest :P.
    NickEmpel likes this.
  9. adamacs RUTH DAVIDSON FOR PM.

    I will keep this brief with some bullet points:
    • Did I like the song? No (but nor was I a fan of euphoria, only teardrops, satellite, fairytale, believe or molitva)
    • Did I think it came across as a joke act? Initially, yes, not so sure now, but I still can't take it 100% seriously
    • Do I agree with conchita's message? Yes, absolutely
    • What does the rest of europe think? Who knows, but it got points from some surprising countries particularly in televote (3rd russia and azerbaijan, 4th belarus and poland)
    Merjan and sokrates1988 like this.
  10. France dont care anymore and after all the hype and build up UK might consider doing the same in the future
  11. Mina Member with a "past"

    Nick, I didn't focus on the song because, well, I didn't like it, although I admitted he did a good job performing it. I really don't know what else I could have said about a song I never liked? That it moves Eurovision forward when it's something that could have been used in a James Bond film about 20 yrs ago? Sorry, I can't say that.

    I don't know who's right or wrong here (or even if there IS right/wrong in this case) but I stand by my opinion...especially regarding my own country, it was the ONLY time our public gave 10 pts to a ballad (I mean without immigrants getting in on it) and, let me tell you, no, we didn't suddenly become ballad lovers...it was because of the ACT, not the song.

    Now, if people believe that the rest of Europe voted for Conchita simply because she had a great song, that's fine, we can't all agree..and, also, if you believe that Conchita winning didn't harm the contest, that's ok, too. I believe it and always have regarding that kind of acts..and I believe it because I hear it all around me, from people who aren't esc fans...that no serious artist would ever go to Eurovision as it is now and has been for the last 10 years.

    Maybe in your countries that's not what happens and Eurovision is considered a serious music festival..good for you :D
  12. Merjan MICHAEL GOVE FOR PM

    Well it depends what you mean by a "serious" artist of course. I don't think Molly would say she wasn't a "serious" artist (or for that matter Andy Abraham or Josh Dubovie - at least with the aspiration to be considered as such). We all know that no currently-established artist from the UK would touch Eurovision with a ten foot barge pole but clearly some countries do send their big stars.

    But in my opinion it's a chicken and egg situation: what came first, the boycotting by established artists or the joke acts? Maybe if more "stars" stood up to be counted the jokes would disappear.

    As for Conchita, yes it's an act; anyone with any sense (sadly lacking in here last night) knows that. But so many actors say they need someone else's persona to hide behind. Europe discovered last night that Tom Neuwirth has a bloody good voice. Maybe he might realise it himself and it might be Tom who rises like a phoenix.
    sokrates1988 and ThatWelshOne like this.
  13. ThatWelshOne Member

    I'm just extremely glad for Austria and Conchita. Yes, the song wasn't the best on the night but the presentation was beautiful and Conchita performed flawlessly. No, Conchita didn't win JUST because of the act. The act was memorable but the song was powerful and was worthy of every point it got.

    About the act, the only remarks made about the beard and the fact it was a man in a dress was made by my 11 year old brother. My mother and her partner couldn't stop going on about how well it was performed. They both said that the song would win. Yes this is only one example, but it just goes to show: it's not just about the fact she's a man in drag. The song appealed to the public and stayed in their memory.

    Can't wait for Vienna 2015!
    Anaconda likes this.
  14. NickEmpel BURGER AND FRIES

    To come up with a cliche: In Dutch we say 'Even if you give a monkey a golden ring, it will always be an ugly thing.'

    Conchita would not have won had she had an utterly crap song (like her 2012 NF song).
  15. Mina Member with a "past"

    Regarding the 'it was about the song' debate:

    For the record, I just went through our rankings here, in the forum.

    Not even ONE person had Austria as his favourite...most didn't even have it in their top 10. Except Sok, who, indeed, liked the song from the beginning. Same went for most online polls, lower top 10 at the most.

    Excuse me, guys, but we had all seen Conchita before and we all knew the song and yet I struggle to remember anyone who had that song as his favourite except Sok...and Nick who had it in his top 5 somewhere.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong but, usually, when it's about the song, the song does have some supporters...and I've been in many esc forums and I hardly remember any particular support for that song ...on the other hand, I had seen plenty of support for Sweden, UK, Norway, Hungary, Armenia, even Greece. How Rise Like A Phoenix suddenly became such a good song that won just because it was a good song is beyond me.

    Anyway, I'm going to stop now. I think I've made all the points I wanted to make.
    sokrates1988 likes this.
  16. Jonny Ginger Tory Witch

    I think the reality is a sort of halfway between the two opposing points. The song is no masterpiece. If you remove the songs from the performances this one does indeed lose a lot of its impact, demonstrated, as Mina has stated, by the fact that prior to the contest many people predicted it as a favourite to win, but not a personal favourite.

    The song did, however, work perfectly with the performance. The grandiose nature of the ballad, layered with large amounts of brass, strings and drawn out notes, as well as the content of the lyrics, meant that the song worked perfectly with Conchita's act, look and presence on stage, hence it won.

    Therefore, as ever in Eurovision, it was a combination of the song and the performance that resulted in Conchita's victory, and neither of those elements would have guaranteed a victory without the other. This shouldn't, nonetheless, take away from Conchita's hefty victory (290 points is quite substantial), as this is no different from any other Eurovision win in that respect.

    Basically it was neither one, nor the other, but both working harmoniously in tandem.
  17. Nessie SWEET HOME ALABAMA

    Conchita was my favourite as well. When the song was released, she went into my top 10, not the first, but top 10. After watching the semifinal, after that EQUILIBRIUM, ELEGANCE, PERFORMANCE, Conchita became my favourite.

    NickEmpel: With That's What I Am, she would have beaten Rybak's record.

    Mina: There was support for Hungary, Armenia, UK, and all but the UK did great. Sweden could send anything and still get support. I've only seen support for Norway from you :P BESIDES. The votes from eurofans are a very small percentage of the total amount of votes, it's normal that they don't match the results. Check the over-themoonandbeyond-rated Charlotte Perelli in 2008.
  18. Eurovizz Member

    Haven't been here for a while, but I'm so happy that you liked our song, Mina :) I'm very satisfied with our final rank myself, I expected something worse due to the early draw.
  19. Anaconda I'm as sick as fuck.

    I don't have anything to add to what Jonny, Nessie, Janet and Nick said. This is how I feel about the song and about Conchita, you made all my points, thank you.
  20. DenDutch Well-Known Member

    I can't really add much either, but I think that if there are people who really want a SONG contest, they should ask Jon Ola Sand to make it a show where you can't see the artist. (a bit like The Voice, but "blind" for the people at home too)

    Oh and I do want to congratulate Conchita, Conchita and the song deserved to win. SO CONGATULATIONS! ( :whistle: )

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