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6

Proposed amendments to auto qualification

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How should auto-qualification work in future contests?

Poll closed 10th September 2011.
Maintain the status quo: top 10 auto-qualify 3 vote(s) 13.0%
Only the host should auto-qualify 3 vote(s) 13.0%
Only the top 3 or 5 should auto-qualify 8 vote(s) 34.8%
The top 3 or 5 and the semi-final toilet should auto-qualify 8 vote(s) 34.8%
Other - please state in the thread 1 vote(s) 4.3%
  1. adamacs RUTH DAVIDSON FOR PM.

    This evening JW discussed the possibility of reducing the number of auto-qualifiers for the contest. On the face of it, this may seem a little unfair, as finishing top 10 is not easy, and those who do will most likely feel that they deserve to not have to qualify. This is a reasonable argument, however, sending a good song, and doing well in one edition does not mean your song is one of the best songs in the next edition. This is something I have learnt on two occasions: edition 20, when Plung Sang Ah Tit finished last, when I was host, and in edition 23 with Tu es d’un Chemin (2nd last) having finished in 5th in edition 22.
    *
    Let’s leave aside edition 20 (I would have auto-qualified no matter what). In edition 23, Luis just missed out on the final by 4 points, and he also got a 12pts in the semi, surely his song was more deserving of a final spot than I was?
    *
    A further example is edition 22, where Luis again missed out on the final, this time by 3 points, again getting a 12. Nick, who finished 7th in edition 21, auto-qualified and finished 22nd. Again, surely Luis’ song was more deserving of a final spot?
    *
    This is the reason for reducing the number of auto-qualifiers, to ensure that the final truly has the best songs in it.
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    The second, perhaps more controversial amendment proposed is that the semi-final toilet should also auto-qualify for the next edition. “Surely this isn’t fair” I hear you cry. Why should someone who had the worst song in one edition auto-qualify for the next at the expense of someone who finished top 10?
    *
    Simply put, this would encourage those who finished last to continue competing. It can be very disheartening when a song that you enjoy is not appreciated by other people and this would soften the blow of coming last. It would also shake things up a little bit, and that's never a bad thing: without innovation, there is no progress and things become stale, and repetitive
    *
    Neither of these changes will be effective for edition 27, and most likely would take effect from 30 onwards.
    *
    Therefore, before voting, I would urge you to seriously think about this, and don’t just go for your gut reaction. Think about the benefits of having the best songs in the final, every single time.
    *
    *
    PS. I am posting this as JW believes, in the words of One True Voice, I have “Shakespeare’s Way With Words”
    *
    red text was not in the original post but added later for clarity
  2. Julio STRANGLES

    obv I vote on only top 3 and why its very simple, its a contest of songs and we are making it seem that the worse song of the contest deserves a place on the final only for sympathy. there were 26 editions so far and that also means 26 toilets and many people got even more then one and that did not stopped them to take part. yes they feel bad for being last but now tell me how would you feel if you were 4th place and you see you go through semi final and the worse song of the contest voted for all the participants goes ahead of you into the next edition final, yes its bad to get a toilet but it is not always as well that you get a top 10 and even less a top 5, by doing this and if that goes ahead we are proving it is not a song contest by giving the worse song privileges. top 3 yes top 10 also good toilet please no if we are voting on songs on the contest and at the end give the worse song a place on next edition final its totally wrong.
    MagicGianluk likes this.
  3. jw HI. I'M ADAM SCOTT.

    That wall of text is hard to read without being in proper paragraphs, Julio, but anyway we aren't saying the worst song of the contest deserves a place on the final, because obviously it doesn't pass to the final.

    Maybe you're getting confused by thinking the worst placed song qualifies from the semi into the final? That's not the case. It's that the overall last placed finisher gets a free ticket to the final of the next edition, kinda like a booby prize but also one to encourage them not to give up. Obviously you've never come last so you don't know how demoralising it is (I admit I haven't either, but I've heard accounts from Este and Nick). If it helps them dust themselves down and get back up on their feet and participate again then it's a good thing IMO.

    Both Este and Entario were severely demoralised to the point of wanting to withdraw after getting toilets in the past. That's something we don't want to happen.

    Also take into account the young people. Some people take it badly if they don't qualify. Imagine how they'll be if they get a toilet. If we're not going to exclude such "immature" people who can't handle failure, we have to accommodate them. But we don't need the excess drama that comes with such reactions when they fail in last place. We're here to give them a good time, a fun time, so why not throw them a bone, save the tantrums, soften the blow and increase their enjoyment?

    Plus it can't be abused because obviously it's only the semi final toilet that would pass to the next edition's final, so that person would already be in the final next time and so wouldn't be able to get the semi final toilet for two consecutive editions. And their leaderboard ranking would suffer considerably.

    Lastly you ask how it would feel for the 4th placed person to not qualify? I assume the same as it does for the 11th placed person now. There has to be a cut-off point somewhere.

    P.S. Mina: No, this doesn't mean we should scrap the semi altogether. :P
  4. Julio STRANGLES

    no im not confused and i know what im saying, im free to have an opinion just like anyone else and thats mine, i know they dont qualify for the edition final im not stupid, but they do stay as automatic qualifiers of the next one and i do not agree.
  5. Julio STRANGLES

    and no t doesnt happen to the 11th place cause the ones above them were the top 10 not the last placed song.
  6. Liam Esterran.

    I personally feel that the top 5 is nicer than the top 3, and would not be against an autoqualifier for the toilet in the next edition.

    That is all.
  7. Merjan MICHAEL GOVE FOR PM

    I don't really mind if it's 3 or 5 (To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't mind if it stayed as it is now) but I don't think the toilet should go through. At least at the moment if someone gets the toilet they are, presumably, getting it with a song they like. I wonder, rather uncharitably and mischievously, if some people might deliberately choose a totally revolting song just so they're sure of getting the toilet and therefore qualifying for the next final.

    What I would say is that I have been surprised by the (imo) quality (or lack thereof) of some songs pre-qualified for finals, and wonder if some people who have pre-qualified don't put as much effort into their song selection, and this might make a bit more thought go into it.
  8. Mina Member with a "past"

    Ok, there are 2 issues here: toilet and number of auto qualifiers.

    As someone who has gotten the toilet 3 times, has not qualified for the final 4 times and has had many bad results in the 26 editions so far, what I have to say about the toilet is that I'm against the whole 'toilet idea' (as you know, jj)...I find it immature, childish and useless. I never liked it. But since you (and by you I don't mean jj but 'you' as most members here) don't mind its existence, I don't see why we should suddenly care about people who 'can't handle failure'. If someone can't handle failure, I don't think it would make him feel better if he qualified by being 'the toilet'. On the contrary, if that happened to me, I would feel worse because I would know that my song went through despite not being liked, just as a way to 'soften the blow'. People are clever enough to know what being last means. Sure, some people care more about results than others but that's the same in every contest, in all ages. In my opinion, if you have such a huge problem of finishing last, you don't participate in a contest. Someone is bound to be last, that's the way it is.

    About the auto qualifiers, I don't really mind one way or another about the number. If I had to choose, I would keep things as they are now.
    There's no way to ensure that the best songs will be in the final...until the moment you actually hear the songs. Even the host may send an awful song next time..so what? He hosts because his song was the best the last time. Same goes for top 3, top 5 or whatever top. Auto qualifiers qualify as a 'prize' because they did well last time...sure, some people could have qualified in the place of auto qualifiers but isn't that always the case? Even if only 3 qualify? Or 5?

    Anyway, I'll be voting for the 1st option just because I don't see any point in those changes..but it's not like I would object if the changes did happen. This is one of those cases where it's up to the majority to decide.
  9. Gian My avatar is fat and frumpy

    If we decide that only 5 songs pass the turn it will be a harder semi final,because every people want to get the final,and then there will be more the risk of an exclusion because of 1 point too!
    I Think the better way is do as in the real esc, top 5 qualified and the rest will qualify with TWO semi final. Even if mine is a nice idea I think that this propose won't be accepted,because organise 2 semi finals means produce two semi final show so double work. However if my propose isn't accepted I think that all sould be as it was,so top 10 qualified.
    And sorry, but why should the toilet auto qualify for the final? this isn't right for all people who didn't pass. THIS IS A NOT HONEST THING! So my answer for the toilet in final is NO!
  10. MORKMINDY Weird Person :D

    Imo, I wouldt mind the top 3-5 to auto-qualify for the final of the next edition.. then again, keeping it how it is were as the top 10 made it would be fine how it is.

    I don't think there's a lack in 'effort' when a country is pre-qualified for the final, take mine for example, in my debut i got 5th place, then moving on to the next edition i then fell in the final to 23rd..there by failing (miserably) in the next edition. I don't suspect any of those who make the final automatically put in less effort..just some of those chose a worse off song and then flop in the final :P

    I remember someone saying (not sure who, in one edition im not sure which) that the semi-final was 'weak' and that in some people's opinion the songs that that were all ready in the final were much better. So in some cases it could also be semi-final people that could chose weak songs it just all depends some people have different ways of choosing their songs, so I wouldn't think the people that auto-qualify don't put as much effort, becuase I certainly did in the time I did (but that did't do me any good :P)

    Though thinking about the toilet idea... I don't think it is a good idea, I have to agree with a few others that if someone gets a toilet they should not be allowed to just make the final next time :\..If they sent a song that came last, they should brush themselves off and try again, its not the end of the world. Though I myself have never got a toilet it does seem that people may want to withdraw becuase of it, it was one semi-final, they will get a chance to make the final next time :P

    So I just chose the top 3-5 in the end.
  11. Gian My avatar is fat and frumpy

    I have an Idea:
    we allow top 10 to pass
    in the semi final we will name a jury that chooses the ONE song who as to pass for technical quality. Of course the song it is one who didn't pass for users votes. So we have a chance plus to choose a good song. The mechanism is the same as in esc 2008 in semi final.
  12. jw HI. I'M ADAM SCOTT.

    Gianluca that idea would complicate things even more, and the whole point of automating the running of the contest is to simplify it and make it easier to manage. Having juries pick a wildcard would add layers of complexities, shouts of favouritism, etc, and it's really really not worth the hassle.

    And once again, Gianluca (and Mina), the toilet song wouldn't pass to the final. It'd just mean that player will not have to face the semifinal next time. Putting the semifinal song itself in the final would be pointless as it would just simply come last in the final anyway.
    MagicGianluk likes this.
  13. CTP Jass hater

    I don't think auto qualifiers put in "less effort". Auto qualifiers might be more inclined to take a risk, send a song they like, but might be different from the "usual" tastes of voters. Not that I would know anything about auto qualifying, as it is rather :alien: to me... I think it would be good to reduce the number of auto qualifiers to maximise the chance of the ESCchat members favourite songs being in the final based on the merit of their current entry, but still reward those for "almost making it". But I have no objections to maintaining the status quo.

    Should the last place get to go to the final next time? Sure, why not, it's a bit of fun... Something that seems to get lost at times... I might be biased though!

    That'll lead to more misery and unhappiness than waking up in a pool of vomit. It's best to leave things completely democratic to stop complaints of favouritism etc. We'd spend another 6 months trying to decide on technical qualities, and another 6 months deciding who...
    MagicGianluk likes this.
  14. James ... and his things xD

    Ok, i have been all those 'novels' and actually I wonder a few things.

    1. Who asked for this changes? I saw indeed a few examples and I can understand them the way Adam wrote them down, but for every system i would be able to give such examples who sound reasonable. Why can't we keep it like it is?

    2. Then about the toilet idea. This idea must have been born in someone's head in a weak moment. (haha sorry). I indeed read the comments about being demoralised and demotivated etc. but:

    a. There have been so many toilets already in semi. Nick and Este were mentioned as examples there, but they are still in the contest, no?

    b. I know I have never got a semi final toilet, but that doesn't mean I can't imagine how it feels. It seems quite useless to me to reward someone for being last. Don't you think someone who got one before last can't get demotivated and demoralised then. Cause I think that if that's the reason to say yes to that idea, the problem of demotivation just goes to that player. Also I think that if you get last with a song (even if you can go to final next time) and you got disappointed because you liked that song etc, I don't see why you would be less disappointed and less demotivated. You still got the toilet in that particular semi.

    I wanted to add this:
    A further example is edition 22, where Luis again missed out on the final, this time by 3 points, again getting a 12. Nick, who finished 7th in edition 21, auto-qualified and finished 22nd. Again, surely Luis’ song was more deserving of a final spot?

    That wouldn't be solved cause Luis's song might have more deserved a final spot than the autoqualifying toilet from the other edition in this system too.

    c. People who quit the contest after a faillure, forget the aim of the contest in my opinion: FUN. At least thats what I think should be the aim of it and anyone else too i guess. I think if you can't face a last place or a non qualification, you shouldn't participate in no matter what game and then it isn't a loss if you give up.

    Especially for that reason I think that that is no good idea.

    Anyway, we will see what happens, but don't forget I only said my opinion in this reaction. Whatever happens, I will accept, but i don't see why we should make changes as it wordked well for 26 editions, why wouldn't it in the future?
    Lilly.. likes this.
  15. jw HI. I'M ADAM SCOTT.

    Of course where would we be if James would ever agree with me? :rolleyes:

    Anyway, the reason for the potential change is to make the semi more important and to stop the same people being auto-qualified every time (and with the exception of this edition and the one after you sent Marie-Mai, it applies to you too).

    And it didn't work well for 26 editions. We didn't have a semi in all of those 26 editions. And remember the reaction of Este in the #14 semi (oh wait, you weren't there) or Entario's toilet in #19 and you'll see the point I've been trying to make.

    And whilst yes, it should be 'fun', the fact is that some people do take it very seriously. Should we just exclude them then? Put up with their bad reactions? Or try to make a small change to appease them and keep everyone happy? Seems like a no-brainer.
  16. Gian My avatar is fat and frumpy

    Now I understood.
  17. NickEmpel BURGER AND FRIES

    Yesterday, I spoke to JW about several issues. One of them being the 'two-semi system' and the other being the number of auto-qualifiers.
    If I simply link these two, then I can only come to one conclusion.
    I somehow don't like the idea of two semis, imagine: We have 35 participants. Only 3 autoqualify. That would either make a 32 participant semi or two semis of 16.
    In my opinion, none of those is the best solution, since the strength of semi 1 could be a lot stronger than semi 2 and imo that isn't fair (never liked it in the big ESC either).
    Then take the 35 again. But now 10 auto-qualify. That would make one semi with 25 participants. That seems fair to me.
    So, I have voted to keep the system as we have it right now.
    Furthermore, let's look at #26. If we take the top 5 to auto-qualify, I would feel pretty bad. In #26, Adam and me tied for 5th place, but on tie-break rules, he beat me. If I would miss auto-qualifying because of that, it would seem pretty shit to me. In the end, we got the same amount of points?
    And Adam is right when he says some auto-qualifiers have screwed up badly in the next final (Adam himself in #20, Krissu in #19, myself in #22) But is that intentionally? Did we REALLY think: Oh I am autoqualified, let's send shit? No we did not! We deserved that spot.
    If you ask me, this reason is useless when you want to prove you are right on this question. (sorry if that sounded harsh)

    Then the toilet qualifying for the next edition.
    I see points for a 'yes' and a point for a 'no'.
    Yes: I know how it is to receive a toilet. For me, it was just a bad timing since the whole issue of 'voting on people instead of songs' was starting. I got afraid that people didn't like me and hardly paid attention to my song (Ok, my song wasn't the best of the bunch, I admit that, But you can see what I mean, right?)
    It did affect my motivation. Ok, I got over it real soon, because I saw I wasn't right. So maybe I am not the best example, especially since I am here to show you what I like. Whether it is 6th or 22nd, I don't mind. However, I can see how other people would feel when they keep on missing out. It would be nice to be there for once?

    No: As Julio says: why should someone with the worst song (in points) of that edition automatically qualify for the final of the next edition? It just wouldn't make sense. Simple as that.

    I cannot decide whether I am pro or against the 'toilet auto-qualifying' system yet.
  18. jw HI. I'M ADAM SCOTT.

    That's no different to the current system if 10th and 11th place were tied for points. 11th misses out because of tie-break rules. Just the same.

    But you don't have to worry about any changes affecting this upcoming edition. They wouldn't be implemented until at least #30. :D
    MagicGianluk likes this.
  19. Mina Member with a "past"

    Yes, jj, I understood that. The member who gets the toilet in a semi will automatically pass to the final of the next edition. And what I said still stands. He sent a song noone liked (or few liked) and we reward him..lol But someone who sent a song that came 4th or 6th (or 11th), will have to go through a semi and maybe not make it to the final at all. How is that fair I just can't understand :P
  20. jw HI. I'M ADAM SCOTT.

    I thought you understood but you said "if that happened to me, I would feel worse because I would know that my song went through despite not being liked" - in fact your song wouldn't have gone through because it came last and so wouldn't pass to the final anyway. That's why I clarified it again. :P

    The idea is that letting the toilet sender directly enter the final next time would be a goodwill gesture to say 'no hard feelings, you'll do better next time'.
    Merjan likes this.

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