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Resolving the combined ties

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Which tiebreak system do you prefer to resolve ties resulting from the combined votes?

System A 9 vote(s) 40.9%
System B 12 vote(s) 54.5%
System C 3 vote(s) 13.6%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. jw HI. I'M ADAM SCOTT.

    Hi,

    The combined voting has thrown up a few questions about how to fairly resolve the ties. You are all invited to comment, and as always, the majority decision shall be the one that is implemented. I want to have this discussion now, so there will be no disagreements during the results, or accusations that ties were broken unfairly.

    From what I can see, there are three possible ways to break the ties. We will use this hypothetical tie for the purposes of all 3 systems:

    Song A receives 10 points from the leader, and 0 from the non-leader.
    Song B receives 0 points from the leader, and 10 from the non-leader.
    Song C receives 5 points from the leader, and 5 from the non-leader.

    System A

    This is the simplest system. The leader's votes take priority across the board. The original idea behind the leadership contest was to use that only when ties couldn't be resolved by any other method (e.g. 12+10 vs 10+12), but it could be used to resolve all ties.

    It would resolve the above tie like so (in order of most points to least points): Song A, Song C, Song B, because the leader gave the most points to Song A, followed by Song C, and didn't give any to Song B.

    System B

    The song that received the highest individual point wins the tie, with the leader's vote taking priority when this cannot result in a clear winner. So, in this case, the order would be Song A, Song B, Song C, because the 10 individual points awarded to Song A and Song B beat the 5 individual points awarded by each member to Song C. Song A beats Song B because of the leader's influence.

    System C

    Resolve ties firstly by the number of people voting for a song. Much like Eurovision, the first resolution method would be to resolve it by the number of people in the team that voted for the song. It means that a song that was voted for by both members - even if they both gave it low/medium points only - would beat a song that one person voted very highly and the other voted very low. Then where it cannot be resolved any further, the leader's votes take priority. In this case, it would be Song C, followed by Song A due to the leader's influence, and then Song B. In other words, a song receiving 5 points from both teams would trump a song that received 10 points from one member only.

    I have no opinion about which system is fairer. What I do know is that not everybody will agree, and some will favour one system over the other. No system is perfect. They all have flaws in some ways. But the aim is to identify which system most people like, and then go ahead with that, hoping everyone else will accept the decision and keep in the spirit of the contest by not causing arguments because of the type of tiebreaker we opted to use.

    Please vote above and explain your rationale below. You may vote for more than one system, if you wish.
  2. Julio STRANGLES

    we selected a leader in the team for some reason, thats why i selected A.
    It solves all types of ties and its more clear, cause it might show some power to the leader, but the other options do the same and not only to the leader, see for example, why is it fair that a song that got 0 from the leader get more points that a song that got 5, cause you have to look to both voters on the other options, if one gives 10 to a song and 0 and at same time both give 5 points to the same song, why is it far for the other member that a song he gave 0 will be above the one they both liked? so the leader solution is the fixed and the best way to solve ties, basically cause if its the other one people will complain that the song they voted higher got bellow something that they gave 0 and the leader was selected leader for nothing
  3. Rua Haldor Lægreid Impersonator

    I also voted for System A on the basis that the leader, as said by Julio, was chosen with a purpose.

    Voting shouldn't be made difficult due to insufferable tiebreaks that end up causing you to pull your hair out, jw - which is why going by the leader's votes on top priority is the way to go.

    After all, why have a leader that doesn't have heightened control? :P
  4. Wiggles Administrator

    I was quite tempted by option B, as it makes high points by either count a lot (sort of the rationale for the old ESC tiebreaker). However, because that still doesn't resolve the tie and the leader's preference will have to be consulted (in the case of 10-0, 0-10 or any other mirrored combination), I think it's better to use option A because of its simplicity.

    When I discussed leader matter with genesis I didn't think it would matter much, but when we thought about it, it was quite clear that the decision would have a big effect on the scores, so I think, having realised the importance and the likelihood of multiple ties, option A is best. The non-leader still has lots of influence so it's not like his votes would be discarded.

    I'm still fascinated with option B, and open to discussion on it. The option I like least is C, as I think high points should count more than two medium-points.
  5. DenDutch Well-Known Member

    I voted for system A, because there is a certain leader with a reason, and both have agreed on that. This will also be the least work for JW.
    I also voted for system B, because it seems quite logic to me to put the song nobody 'extremely' likes as the last of the bunch. This is a way where the non leader has a bit more influence I think, and some people will like that and others might not.
    I least system C the least, because song nobody 'extremely' liked becomes 1st (see above), so I think that shouldn't be 1st, but rather 2nd or 3rd.

    Also, I do think your opinions are more important are relatable, since there were no ties in Schapensof ( :yeah: )
  6. NickEmpel BURGER AND FRIES

    For me it's definitely System B (would be fine with A as well though).
  7. James ... and his things xD

    I voted for system B, because I think when a song gets a higher mark by one of the two players, it should have more influence on the ending score than for example 2x5 in my opinion.
    It also makes the votes of the two people a bit more equal, unlike the leader system.
  8. ThatWelshOne Member

    In my opinion, A would be the best choice since it is obviously less hassle to work out scores with, and it's the fairest, since it goes by the leader's votes first. Otherwise there wouldn't be much of a point selecting a leader.
  9. Julio STRANGLES

    it doest really, so if you give a song 10 points while your partner gives it 0, then you give a song 5 while your partner also 5 why does the song that your partner have last has to have priority over a song you both liked just because you gave it higher points?
  10. James ... and his things xD

    Thats the same with the other system yu prefered, no? Then it can also be that you gave a song 12p and daisy 0. At least with system B it is more coincidence than decided in advance who will influence the votes more.
  11. Julio STRANGLES

    yes that's exactly my point, it happens on both A and B, but A gives much less work to jw based that we all know he has the maths problems. So why to make more stress, more work, for something that at the end will be the same thing?
  12. Julio STRANGLES

    Plus imagine, you give a song 10pts, and your partner 12, then you give a song 12pts and your partner 10. So who gets first in there? If we go with the leader its much easier, if not then a new rule would have to be done to decide those.
  13. jw HI. I'M ADAM SCOTT.

    Let's not use my disability as an excuse for preferring one system over another. I'll implement whatever people decide is the best. But I know you have my best interests at heart, so ty.
  14. sokrates1988 I HATE EUROVISION

    ive voted for A but would be happy with either A or B whichever is easiest to implement
    Teodor likes this.
  15. Merjan BOSOPOFO ELSIE

    I can see points for and against each system, but have voted for B. I don’t see how (correct me if i’m wrong, and I’m sure you’ll be queuing up to do so) System B is more complicated than System A.

    Julio is quite right, this is why we decided on having a leader in the team. What is the point of having a leader if they, in effect, have exactly the same status as the other team member?

    Before we started the team contest we, as a group, decided that we would have individual votes, then combine them, rather than discussing the votes and coming up with joint ones in the first place. At the time I initially said I wouldn't be happy with this because a song I voted highly might end up with few or no points because the other team member didn't like it (or vice versa) but then changed my mind as I thought the combined votes would make it more interesting (and it's now clear that they will, or we wouldn't be having this vote).

    I still wouldn’t be happy in this instance, but concede I will have to put up with it, but I think there are opportunities (for want of a better word) for people not to be happy either way:
    • In Scenario A, I would be miffed because the song I voted highest got the fewest votes (or conversely, the song I voted lowest got the most)
    • In Scenario B, the team leader would still take precedence (so, from what I've read above, people should be happy with that; I don’t understand why everyone seems to be suggesting System A is the only one that gives the leader any dominance) but (if I understand Julio correctly) he feels it would be unfair for the leader if a song he (the leader) gave 5 points to was ranked below one he gave no points to, so in this scenario we have the other team member (i.e. the leader) not being happy
    • Scenario C: should a song that was liked by both members (even if not as much) be ranked higher than one that polarised opinion? My gut instinct is ’no’ and, indeed, *whichever way this went, both team members might have cause to be put out about the relative placings of other songs, but could it be considered the “best” choice as the least divisive option? There just seems to be some merit in having a song that was OK for both parties taking priority. But see above*

    So, to sum up, to me there doesn’t seem to be a perfect solution; whatever system is chosen will have its drawbacks. But, as I said in Chat earlier, I get pissed off if a song I have in my bottom 3 wins a contest, but I have to get over it. However this is decided, we’ll probably all have to ‘lump’ something.
  16. After reading the comments I decided to vote for system A.
  17. Julio STRANGLES

    So explain something to me, in Scenario 2, if you give a song 12 points and your partner 10 (22 points) and then i give a song 12 and you 10 (22 points) what would go above the other? the leader song? 2 rules in one? would you be ''miffed'' still if a song you liked more got down cause of the leader?
    Also on system A you say you would be miffed if a song you liked would go down cause of the leader, so is it ok that in the option B where the exact same thing might happen? plus like i said on the option B there might be the case of one giving the same points, and then who takes the lead? put two rules into one? for one thing use leader for other use the highest rank? isnt that to much?
  18. Wiggles Administrator

    I cannot change my actual vote (option A), but I've started to like option B the most. The leader's preference still prevails in mirrored ties, but I like the idea of giving increased importance to high points, and thus giving greater value to the high points of the non-leader, where there is a difference.

    I didn't mean to imply only option A gave power to the leader, janet, I mostly liked A earlier today because of its sheer simplicity in application. Seeing how the vote is going, I don't know if it'll make any difference, but my current opinion favours option B.
  19. Merjan BOSOPOFO ELSIE

    It clearly says that in Scenario B the leader's votes take precedence if the tie can't be broken. And that's exactly what I mean, there is no way everyone will be happy, so we'll probably all have to end up compromising.
  20. Julio STRANGLES

    So double work? hm ok

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